850? 840?

IIjzXXL

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#1
thinking about getting an 840 or an 850
i need to know what are the down fall of this car
i want it just for daily drving.
i alway like how it look an
and now i got an oppertunity to get an 850
i was wondering how are the maintain and lol gas milage on it
just want to know what im getting myself into if i decide to take this
route
thx guys
 

Big Daddy

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#2
I had a 91 750iL. Great car with loads of power. 21-22 mpg on the highway, 15-17 city driving. The V12 can be very expensive, a few examples: Upper pan gasket R&R over 1k, uses two caps, rotors, air filters, fuel filters, the throttle control motors can cost up to 900 and there are two. I think all in all I'd get the V8.
 
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#5
Big Daddy said:
I think all in all I'd get the V8.
Early V8s (94-95) suffer from the usual Nikasil problems. I would go 96 or newer for an 840.

I prefer the 850, particularly the rare 850csi, which is quite expensive even today ($40k plus). The 840 just doesn't have the clout of the V12 and the 8 is supposed to be the top of the range.

There are a lot of expensive things to go wrong on this car and the parts alone are murder. A well kept 120k mile car is probably better than an 80k mile car waiting for $4-6k in repairs in the next 40k miles.

Unless you are able to spend $200/month in maintenance on top of the price of the car, an 8 series is not for you.

You can't drive a $90k car for $20k without paying for the repairs of a $90k car.
 
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#6
our 850 i was trouble free. The newsgroup we belonged to helped a lot. The trouble list I posted came from PMB the leader of that group. You do need to buy carefully. And you need to pick your service provider carefully. We travelled a distance to get good service; it was worth it.

The early cars had potential problems with throttle motors. Late ones did not. Seat motors were an issue on some; the driver's seat in particular could get out of sync, and go crooked. There was a low dollar fix (related to shortening cables IIRC; never had to do it.)

I would do an internet search for groups dedicated to the CSi. Some of the most informed owners became participants in that group.

It's an incredible car. A cult car. In that respect, like the NSX. ;-)

Dave
 
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#7
dlynch said:
It's an incredible car. A cult car. In that respect, like the NSX. ;-)

Dave
Believe me, if I ever decide to buy a GT, the 850csi is on the short list and probably the most likely candidate. If I had unlimited funds and a warehouse of cars, there would definitely be an 850 in it, but ONLY the V12.

A V8 8 series is like a cloth-interiored Jaguar or a V6 Corvette, it just doesn't quite make it. It is still a great car in its own right, but the 8 was born with a masterpiece of a V12 and that is that way it should be.
 

IIjzXXL

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#8
hey thx guys for the info
you guys think i should realy get the v12??
if soo what year
i was talking to this guy about his car it was a 93 850
i dont know if he was bs ing but he told me that the 91 and 92 were no good
cus it had some minor flaws in it and that 93 was the best year to get it
the reason why i want to get this car is for daily driver i have a sports car already with all the power i need that why i was leanong on the v8
but if the v12 if the real deal then im going for it
but keep this post going i enjoy reading your posts
thx alot for the help
 
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#9
IIRC correctly the throttle motors were an issue. "DK" motors?

They were replaced with later cars. It's a drive by wire car. The network runs throughout the whole car. Get the most recent you can afford.

Ours was a '91 and it was reliable. Only issue was a fan clutch (rad fan) and we solved that easily with no issues at all.

Ours was a 6-speed. A lot more fun; for us anyway.

And ours was chipped. They're great cars. Make sure you see the repair history.

Dave
 
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#10
well hello it's been awile since ive been in here , Ive been cruising around having some 850i fun these days . As to respond to IIjXXL question about the 8 series
il say this , Its a wonderful car and yes its not for the faint of heart on repairs
if your not a mechanic and you dont do a pre inspection buy on these cars before you buy one , Ive seen people buy them and drive them down to its time for repairs and cant afford the normal matinance on the car and it ends up wasting in a garage some where our they take them to some european cattle shop that screws the car up even worse than it already was , The myth about the car and its history has taken a real beating in the press when it was first introduced but youl find out that everyone that owns one our ever had one wears a smile on there face and i have 2 of them and i am building my own csi what they call the M8
the 300mph monster that runs the S-70 motor better known as the F1 Mclaren motor which is BMW V12 you can order the motor for 15 grand it flat out hauls but
the normal M70 V12 are pretty reliable the secret is to have access to parts once you got that the rest is easy if your mechanic our not ..But in truth about any car is as good as you take car of it our how you bought it ..both my 8 series are jewels with 60,000 on one and 75,000 on the other
the 840ci is a tease it's the same big block V8 BMW is running in there 7 series and 5 series , Also you can pump close to 400 horses out of a M70 with the right combination of mods and of course that ugly word ..Money " But the 8 series is a nice car If you decide to buy one go for the big dog V12 and make sure you do a pre inspection and car fax scan try to get some history of the car and ask to see a paper trail , A real good onwer should have that because if you dont you can be in for a nightmare , And try get a low milage 8 series at least you know what you got ..good luck ....and p.s whats up
dlynch [bmwdance]
 
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#11
Heres a good article i found about the 850i part-1

It facinates me the opinions people dribble about the BMW 8 Series being a "mechnical nightmare" or "expensive to maintain", and "prone to failure". All from individuals that have never owned one themselves. Let's quit guessing about the car and come up with some facts:

The 8 Series, like any mechnical device will have failures over time. All things entropy. It's the way things are in the world. That said, this car is incredibly reliable. My current '91 has 135K miles on the 5.0L 12 cylinder engine with zero engine work done. Both of my '92's were sold with over 100K miles on them with also no engine work done. The good and bad thing about the E31 is they have a list of consistent items that DO fail. The good thing is that these are KNOWN items that most owners, dealers, and competent service technicians are aware of. They are:

Driver's side seat will twist due to a cable bunching up. This is a do-it-yourself fix.

The power motors do eventually go bad in the power seats depending on the use.

Since this is a 12 cylinder, there are two air filters, two ECUs (computers) and two DK Motors that control the drive by wire. These are basically servos that feed the fuel to the bank of cylinders. These are known to fail after 70K miles. I have yet to ever replace these on any of my cars.

The On Board Computer (OBD) is a display made up of orange pixels. Over time some of the pixels will fade or not show. This is also a simple fix. This is a common problem on ALL BMWs, even the brand new ones. My wife drives a 2001 525i and it's been in the shop more than all of my 8 Series cars combined. It currently has 2 pixels out now.. very small. More annoying than anything.

Wear and tear items are typical of ANY car with high mileage and for an older vehicle: Control arm bushings, brakes, tires, suspension bits. The 8 Series is a heavy car. After 95K miles, the suspension will start to show it's age, and the steering will not be as tight as new. Nothing unusual here.

Some 8 Series owners have had the maniford leak and causes a rough idle. It is very noticable when this happens. The car is normally so smooth, that is is within US Specifications to balance a quarter on the engine block.

There is dual-climate control. Over time the heater control valve which opens and closes the heat vents in the floor and in the defrost vents will fail causing the air to be warm even with the A/C on. The part is $140.00 and is a DIY replacement, or about 3 hours labor with a service shop.

That's it for known problems. Of course, depending on how well the car was maintained by the previous owner, there could be other issues. The above listed items are for a documented, well maintained 8 Series. As you can see, nothing that warrants the car be labeled as "Mechanical Nightmare" Remember that is was quite overwhelming for a car in 1991 and even up until the late '90s to have dual climate control, a steering wheel that has power tilt and telescope, 3 position memory seating that also sets the side mirrors, headrest, and steering position. The steering wheel moves up and out of the way and back down again when the door is opened. The windows will partially go down when you pulled on the inside or outside door handle to create a better seal for very high speed driving aerodynamics and an extremly quite cabin. The car has a built in cell phone with voice recognition. The windows automatically go up over 90mph if they are down to seal the cabin and improve the aerodynamics.

Really, though, these "complex systems" are nothing less than standard features now on most newer BMWs and even most mid-grade passenger cars. Will they too be labeled as "complex systems prone to failure" when they get older? My wife's 2001 525i has all of the above features as standard equipment (except the windows dropping, which is now a standard feature on all BMW convertables). Her car was rated as the best car ever tested by Consumer Reports. Edmunds also rates the car very highly. Yet, it has the same complicated systems that the 8 Series has. In fact it has more! The car is rated well and deemed reliable but has been to the shop much more than any of the 8 Series I have owned.

Maintainence?? Well, I owned a '91 BMW 535i before my first 850i and paid $49.00 for an oil change service as the BMW dealership. I now pay $69.00 for the same service on my 850i. The only additional cost with the 12 cylinder is that there are two oil filters and two air filters. The 5.0L. 5.4L and 5.6L (in the Csi) have basically two in-line 6 cylinder engines in them. In fact the car is so reliable that if you WERE to have an engine failure, the car will automatically shut down the side of the engine with the problem and go into "limp home mode" and continue to run safely on 6 cylinders!

Brake fluid, steering fluid, coolant, brakes, etc. are all the same price as any other BMW. If someone tells you differently, then it's a myth, or they are a service shop that is trying to rip you off. BMW has what they call Inspection I and Inspection II Service. This is basically all-inclusive tune-ups, oil change fluid flushes, etc. The cost difference between my wife's 2001 525i (it has over 45K miles so it's not paid for by the dealer anymore after 36K miles) and my '91 850i for the Inpection I service is $57.00. For the Inspection II service the 850i costs $75 more.

Speaking of service shops, all BMW dealers are aware of this car. The V8 engine in the 840i is the same engine in the 540i and 740i which were produces en-masse. The 5 liter engine in the 850 is the same as the 750i. There is no "mystery" to these cars. The first question you must always ask when taking ANY car to an independent shop is: "Have you worked on this make/model car before" If the answer is no, then don't be the guinea pig! If yes, make sure you are up on the basic knowledge of the car and test your mechanic to see that they at least know for instance, that an 850i comes with a 12 cylinder engine.

Regarding the 8 Series being a marketing failure or a failure at anything, this too is a myth. When the car was introduced at the German auto show in 1990, BMW took so many orders in that one show, that they filled the production of for 3 years. If you were to place an order for a 1991 BMW 850i in 1991, you would get your car by the end of 1993. Thus, they never spent money on advertising the car. Think about it. How many BMW 8 Series TV ads do you remember? How many 8 Series print ads did you read? The 8 Series sold on it's own. Total Worldwide sales were 30,621 units for an "exclusive car". Some failure.
 
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#12
Part-2 of the good article of the 850i

I want to correct a few items:

1. The 12 Cylinder Engine has two AIR FILTERS not two OIL FILTERS. (Typo)

2. The E31 8 Series does not have a power adjustable head restraint. The E39 5 Series DOES.

3. BMW began production on the 8 Series officially in 1989 with a few cars, not 1990.

4. In addition to two air filters, two ECUs, and two DK motors, the car has two batteries located in the trunk. The double ECUs and the DK motors are not factors in increased maintainencecosts. The cost of one additional air filter and one additional battery (not replaced often) does affect the overall cost of maintainence though not by much.

5. The windows automatically go up in the 8 Series at 93.2 Mph not 90 Mph.

Additional points:

You can order the air filters and oil filter from the BMW parts department, catalogs or online and bring these parts to your local quick-oil change service center to have your oil changed and fluids serviced. You can also do the work (just like any car) yourself. Many owners do both of these types of services. I have just always used the dealer. I find the cost savings not worth the extra effort.

BMWs in most cases are more expensive to service, this is true of both old and new models. Keep this in mind when looking to purchase a used BMW of ANY model. My neighbor bought a used 325i and has spend quite a bit of money on the car so far since it had not been service properly.

A final note:
The 8 Series is an alluring siren that can enchant the mis-informed buyer. Since the car was not widely marketed, and they are fairly rare, most 8 Series used car buyers dive in feet first based the the looks of the car alone. When they get one that has be neglected since they purchased on emotion and never had the car properly checked out, they find that BMWs in general are quite expensive to repair. That I believe is the source of some of the poor reputation the 8 Series has regarding it's reliability. It's a looker, but be warned, don't buy on emotion alone. Some of the older 8 Series cars have been in a more affordable price range over the last several years. Most of these older E31s have higher miles on them, thus the reduced price. Usually they need some work so the owners sell them off to purchase something newer instead of investing in repairs. This is typical of most cars.

An 8 Series comes up for sale and they are purchased like this:

1. They look nice
2. They look fast
3. Wow! No one else will have the same car around town!
4. It's a an exotic
5. It's an BMW
6. 12 Cylinders... cool!
7. I think I can just afford it.

Unfortunately, this type of buyer will not have budgeted any repairs that may be needed on an 12 year old BMW with 100K+ miles, multiple owners and minimal documentation. They will not have spent the extra $80 to have a Pre Purchase Inspection performed, since they usually are barely able to purchase the car. Once they own the used 8 Series for awhile the items that need attention will start to reveal themselves. Some are as simple as one of the two batteries having a low charge and being the source of minor electrical glitches and false warning fault lights. After paying for some repairs at a local service center that knows nothing about these cars (to save money) the owner will then:

1. Say the car is a "mechanical nightmare"
2. Sell the car off for a loss to the next mis-informed buyer who will start the above cycle again.

Take some time and find a well documented example, pay more for it, and it will cost you less money. If you are one of the potential 8 Series buyers looking for a good deal on a questionable car, just make sure you budget for possible repairs to get the car back to proper working order.

BEFORE you purchase an 8 Series, make sure you have access to a BMW Dealer or other service shop that has worked on these cars before. If you do not have access to a competent shop locally, you may want to consider another car.
[bmwdance]
 
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#13
dwayne said:
i am building my own csi what they call the M8
the 300mph monster that runs the S-70 motor better known as the F1 Mclaren motor which is BMW V12 you can order the motor for 15 grand it flat out hauls
I appreciate your enthusiasm for the 850. It is a wonderful car.

However, I need to address a few misperceptions you have.

The McLaren F1 runs the S70/2 V12 engine. All it has in common with the production V12 is the 91mm bore centers and the vee angle. It is otherwise a unique motorsport creation. This same engine was detuned for the V12 LMR. You can't buy one for $15k. You probably can't buy one for $150k.

The McLaren's engine was an evolution of the engine developed for the stillborn, never released M8. That M8 prototype is not to be confused with the 850csi, affectionately known as the 'M8' in some circles. The 850csi motor can probably be purchased for $15k, but makes 372 hp rather than the 627 of the McLaren engine.

Neither the McLaren, the V12 LMR nor the 850 can do 300 MPH. Perhaps you meant kph?
 
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#14
As a answer to your post the motor i am buying is coming out of a wrecked F1 mclaren seams like the owner loss control and totaled the car and i was given a offer to buy the motor for 15 grand and any other parts and your right the csi motor is diffrent but the csi motor is a good one if you can find the car in its original shape and form , Ive seen alot of clones running around til you run the numbers on the cars but i got pretty darn lucky to have a chance at getting this motor online thru a private insurance yard for cars there is a web site with a csi doing 303 kph on the german auto bahn and yes i to doubt it til i saw the video's blew me away also there is so much myth talk about the car period until you own one our had the chance to experiance these cars , And i own 2 of them ..heres the web url to the site that will explain it , All the video's should be there check it out for yourself click on english version of the site and click on video's also surf around and youl see the info on the mclaren and the the dirty little secret bmw hid away in there warehouse --> heres the site and your right i meant kph http://www.e31.net/english.html
enjoy....... [bmwdance]
 
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#15
dwayne said:
As a answer to your post the motor i am buying is coming out of a wrecked F1 mclaren seams like the owner loss control and totaled the car and i was given a offer to buy the motor for 15 grand
That is almost certainly too good to be true. The real value of that motor is a lot more than $15k. Proceed with extreme caution.

dwayne said:
there is a web site with a csi doing 300mph plus on the german auto bahn and yes i to doubt it til i saw the video's blew me away
German cars read in kilometers per hour, not miles per hour. They use the metric system, like the rest of the world.

300 KPH = 186.3 MPH.

I don't need to own an 850 to have a lot of historical knowledge about the car. Trust me when I say I know what I am talking about. I have known about the M8 since the press spotted it in testing back in the early 90s, before the internet had E31 forums . . .
 
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#17
dwayne said:
As a answer to your post the motor i am buying is coming out of a wrecked F1 mclaren seams like the owner loss control and totaled the car and i was given a offer to buy the motor for 15 grand.
Yeah I know for a fact that MacLaren and BMW keep a VERY close eye on all of the Macca F1s that are floating around. I highly doubt that they'd just disregard a Macca that was totaled... But if you are getting that engine then I want to see the pics of those titanium extractors.
 


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